Paul Krassner on the New Meaning of Obscenity

Perennial rebel Paul Krassner founded counterculture magazine The Realist in 1958. He went on to party with Ken Kesey’s Merry Pranksters, found the Youth International Party (Yippies), and edit Lenny Bruce’s autobiography while becoming one of his protégés. The author, journalist, and comedian’s most recent book, Who’s to Say What’s Obscene?: Politics, Culture, and Comedy in America Today, is a collection of satirical essays. Below, Krassner discusses with Byron Perry the decriminalization of marijuana, pornography on the Internet, and Janet Jackson’s FCC faux pas.

Q. I haven’t read the book yet, but what’s with the title? Who is to say what’s obscene?
A. First of all, the original title was going to be “We Have Ways of Making You Laugh” but it turns out there was a book that had been published with that same title. And it was a collection of cartoons all with a swastika theme, so I certainly didn’t want to be confused with that. And so my editor and I went back and forth and came up with this title because the concept of obscenity used to be associated just with pornography or profanity. But the word “obscene” has morphed into an adjective for other things that really do harm. Like torture is obscene. Tax breaks for corporations are obscene. The fight against healthcare by people who are manipulated by top Republicans is obscene. Instead of a porn flick being obscene, that’s taken for granted because porn has entered into mainstream awareness and acceptance. So now if something is obscene, like the profits of pharmaceutical companies and insurances companies, that means something evil, it doesn’t mean sexual.

Who's to Say What's Obscene, by Paul Krassner

Q. I do think the word is being used a lot more these days in situations where it’s not necessarily old-fashioned obscenity but more something that would cause outrage.
A. By the way, I appreciate your honesty in telling me you hadn’t read the book. When “Catch-22” was first published, I met Joseph Heller at some party and he said, “Have you read my book?” And I said, “I’m in the middle of it.” Then I confessed in my magazine The Realist, that I not only hadn’t read it but that I didn’t even have a copy. He was a reader of the magazine and he saw that and he sent me the book with a note saying, “You don’t have to read it. You practically write ‘Catch-22’ with every issue of The Realist.” So then I asked him for an interview and I studied that book as if it were punishment for not doing my homework and I got a very interesting interview with him as a result…which wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t admitted that I lied to him and I hadn’t read the book.

Q. That’s great. Yea, I think it’s always better maybe to admit what you have and haven’t read.
A. Yea, you can get caught in a lie, but you can’t get caught in the truth. I think it was Mark Twain who said that the good thing about being honest is that you don’t have to remember stuff.

Q. Exactly. You have a long history as being part of the counterculture movement and sort of a rebel. What is there to rebel against these days? What are you rebelling against?
A. Oh, there are countless things to rebel against. Under the headings of injustice, inhumane, absurd, counter-productive. All of these things. In the ‘60s we had reproductive rights, the war in Vietnam, poverty, the environment – those were the main ones. Now there are hundreds upon hundreds of causes. Every day I get cause invitations from Facebook. The song from the ‘60s that was used for the civil rights movement and other causes was “We Shall Overcome” and now it’s become “We Shall Overlap” because there are so many things to rebel against.

Q. Which causes do you take the most interest in, though? Or are you really into all of them?
A. There are so many, you know. Decriminalization of marijuana is one. I feel strongly about that. It might feel trivial to some people, but I think there is a linear connection between the dehumanization that allows a society to put people in prison for smoking a weed that does no harm, as opposed to the legal drugs. You know, all the pharmaceuticals that have worse side effects than what they’re supposed to cure or hide. So it’s relevant that the Partnership for a Drug Free America was founded and funded by the alcohol, tobacco, and pharmaceutical multinationals. Because they don’t want no stinkin’ competition. So my feeling is that as long as any government can arbitrarily decide which drugs are legal and which drugs are illegal, anyone behind bars for a drug offense is really a political prisoner. If they can have that much dehumanization then it trickles up all the way to invading Iraq. And that was unnecessary and caused 4,000 American deaths and a million Iraqi deaths and the Republican administration for those years just propagandized the public. Also, reproductive rights are an important cause for me. In the ‘60s, when abortion was illegal I had published an interview with an abortionist, a physician, who had a clinic in Ashland, Pennsylvania. He charged as little as five dollars and people visited him from around the country just from word of mouth, and after I published the interview I got calls from women who were pregnant that didn’t want to be, and didn’t know where to turn. And so I became an underground abortion referral service and got caught and subpoenaed by district attorneys in two different cities. So I know what it was like then. I don’t think the Supreme Court will overturn Roe vs. Wade but the opposition to abortion from religious zealots is… their devil never sleeps.

Q. How do you think today’s counterculture movements against things that are considered unjust compare to the ‘60s, when you got your start?
A. I think there’s always been a counterculture. It went from the bohemians, to the Beats, to the hippies, to the yippies, to punk, to hip-hop. So it takes different forms, but I think one of the main differences now is technology. The Internet has changed the nature of protest. But there are reflections, and modern versions of old causes. The SDS, Students for Democratic Society, has been revived by young people with a whole different worldview than the original SDS people had because they’ve grown up in a different era. So when I’ve spoken at campuses I’ve been asked that question a lot. One of the differences, why there aren’t more people involved these days is because there was a draft back then. And there isn’t one now. If there were a draft, I think people would be protesting in the streets. Unfortunately, that’s what makes it more personal. Every potential draftee has a family and friends and fellow employees. So it’s a more self-interested concern.

Q. How do you think the Internet has changed what’s obscene?
A. Access. There are 14-year-old kids who watch porn. And they joke about it and it’s widespread. Parents may find some kind of screening device but the kids just ask their classmates, “What do I do about this firewall that my mom put up?” They’ll get around it or their friends have watch it. Maybe they’ll get bored by it, who knows. Or maybe it’s educational for them. Or maybe it just gives them something to fantasize about when all they have is their hands to go out with.

Q. In the last couple years, some of the big flaps involving obscenity and the government have been about fairly trivial things like Janet Jackson and her boob being shown during the Super Bowl and people saying “fuck” during awards shows. What do you think of the FCC and its reaction to those events and how might the FCC change under Obama? Has it changed?
A. I can’t say “FCC”, I have to say “The F-word”. The FCC is a four-letter word actually. First of all, what happened with the Janet Jackson incident was that the media made a mountain out of an implant. And the government – it was an election year – so all of a sudden, there was a bunch of fake outrage and piety about this 19th of a second, I think it was. It’s the same thing with Bono. At first the FCC commissioner said it wasn’t in a sexual context so it wasn’t considered obscene, then that was reversed, and then recently it was reversed again. So they reversed a reversal. It’s a farce. The FCC’s trying to walk on a tightrope between politics and public service.

Q. When I was researching on your book I read a blurb that basically said that one of your main goals is to expose hypocrisy in American society. Do you agree with that?
A. In the book, I say that the theme of the book was inspired by the abundance of hypocrisy. I have a story in there about when Gary Condit was one of the prime people trying to get Clinton impeached for lying about the Monica Lewinsky affair. And then Gary Condit himself was having an affair with Chandra Levy, another intern. A reporter asked William Bennett, the former morality czar, if he thought that was hypocritical. And Bennett said, “Well, hypocrisy is better than having no values at all.” So that became my mantra for a while.

Q. You have a background in comedy. What comedians do you admire today?
A. Bill Maher. Wanda Sykes. Sarah Silverman. Chris Rock. Those are the first people that come to mind.

Q. Is there any particular reason or unifying attribute with them?
A. They realize that the edge is arbitrary. So they step over invisible lines. Everything evolves, including the devolving of taboos. What Lenny Bruce got arrested for, now has become an all-purpose noun, verb, adjective, adverb, epithet, dangling participle, whatever.

Q. What was it he got arrested for?
A. Oh, I’m talking about his language!

Q. Was it a specific word?
A. Well, the first one was in San Francisco for saying “cocksucker.” Lenny was talking about some transvestite club across the street from where he was playing in San Francisco and he was playing the part of an agent, among others. And the agent calls them a bunch of cocksuckers as a literal thing, not even as a put down. And so what he really got busted for there was aptness in characterization. He was a pioneer in making organized religion a satirical target. He broke from that generation that did mother-in-law jokes. But there were no blasphemy laws so they couldn’t bust him on blasphemy, but they could on obscenity. I think in one year there were 15 arrests for that. And it made news in Variety when he did a show and he wasn’t arrested.

*Photos courtesy City Lights Publishers.


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